Official Luthiers Forum!

OK, so I'm safely in the comfort zone with scarf jointed heads, so I've been thinking it's time I moved on to V-joints. I've tried searching the archives and can't get a hit, but I know they've been discussed here before.

I know Joshua uses them, and probably some of you other classical guys do, so can anyone point me to a discussion on their construction, and hopefully an idiot's guide, or provide one.

I know they are generally used on classical guitars, but I don't see why they shouldnt be used on steel strings. They just seem much more elegant to me.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I'm with you Colin. That is one of those building skills I want to acquire. Old man Martin used to use those joints on his steel string guitars and from that evolved the diamond volute on the back of the peghead. How about sharing the info you find. In the meantime, I will look through the back issues of GAL magazine because I am pretty sure there is an article with pics.

It is touched on in Campianos Book. Diagran 4-37 but he goes into no detail on it.

   The actuall term is still a mortice and tenon. The joint is not that difficult but will take some practice. I have repaired a few of the older martins and to be honest , love the challenge of my skills. I use a morticeing chisel 1/4" for the headstock and the tenon I rough out on the band saw.
     I use a wide chisel to true things up. It is easier to make the tenon fit the moritce than the other way so make that first
john hall

There are one or two photo tutorials/archived discussions on this topic in the MIMF library, for the record.

As Mattia says Mimf's libabry has a photo tutorial http://www.mimf.com/library/senseney_v-joint_headstock.htm

I adapted it to a bandsaw with a simple jig and practiced on 2 x 4 cuttoffs until I gat it right. After all of that, I don't know if I will ever use it. It was more of something to do while I was building my shop.

_________________
Scott Thompson
Port Townsend,WA

"In a perfect world we'd all sing in tune
But this is reality so give me some room"
-Billy Bragg

I've had little sleep and am getting over being sick, but I'll do my best to describe how I do it. I've don't something around 26 of these joints now.

I use Spanish Cedar but it could be done easily in Mahogany, and the stock for the neckshaft needs to be 1 and 1/8th inch thick, cleared.

Squaring up all the surfaces of the neck shaft is very important in planning the joint if its your first couple.

You must have a centerline that is accurate on both the front and the back.

The intended dimensions of the V are 45 tall by 36 wide, for a 52mm neck width, you'll want to change these for something less.

All marks are made with a japanese marking knife - ie they're scribed into the wood. Once I decide which is the face of the neck, to accept the fingerboard,I make a mark 2mm from the end of the neck, and 47 mm fron the end of the neck. This is the 45 mm length of the neck.

At the 47mm mark, I use a small square to mark across the neckshaft. Then along that line I make two marks, on either side of the center line, at 18mm from the center line. These marks are for the width of the V.

Next I clamp a straight edge to correspond with the marks and scribe the V into the wood (the knife is a single bevel).

Once the piece for the head is planed to its near final thickness SANS headplate, you can use it to determine how much angle you can get, and record this with a sliding T-bevel. How much angle is possible is directly related to the thickness of the wood for the neckshaft.

Once I've set an angle on my sliding T-bevel, I use it to scribe a line on both sides of the neck shaft, angling toward the back of the neckshaft. Then on the back of the neckshaft I use a square to scribe a line connecting the ends of the lines on the sides. This established the angle, and this should all remain square to keep carving easily.

Next I measure up from the line across the back of the neckshaft, up the center line 45mm and make a mark. then along the across line I make two marks 18mm from the center line, and scribe everything as I did the front.

Now that everything is marked, I've made sure the marks are deep enough to chisel out a bevel against them on the outside only to help as a saw guide.

With a fretting saw I first make the cut at the sides, establishing the angle - careful to not cut beyond the scribed V, and sure to no obliterate the original scribed line.

For the V cuts, when looking down at the endgrain of the neckshaft you'll note that you need to cut at an angle (ie. not 90 degrees) in order to connect the scribed lines of the front and back of the V.

Again, I'm careful to not obliterate the line, because I will later take chisels to it.





Once the rough V is cut out, I use a wide chisel that is freshly sharpened to true up the V. If the original planning and marking of the V was good, and I didn't kill the lines, it will be accurate enough to not really need to be touched while fitting the head.

For the head, it may be useful to use an entirely different piece of Cedar of Mahogany from the neckshaft. The natural color and grain variations from one piece to another will show off the joint better. For me its become kind of a trademark to veneer the back of the head with offcuts of the back (or something similar to bindings), and this shows off the joint nicely.

The head is already planed to the desired thickness, minus the front headplate, which in my case is 18mm.

Once the center line is scribed across the head, and a line square to it across the head at the bottom - I mark the dimensions of the V and scribe it. Then I cut it out on the bandsaw.

Next the head is cleaned up with chisels and checked at the neckshaft for a good fit, and worked continually until you can see no light through the mating surfaces. There should also be no twist in the head. it needs to be a good fit, or it will be quite obvious. This takes time and concentration.

Once everything is fitted, I prepare some hide glue. Hide glue is important - because if the guitar it dropped 5 years from now and the V-separates (which it will do, instead of a neck fracture - since its glued end grain to end grain), you won't need to clean the glue out of the end grain. You can simply add more hide glued and clamp the thing shut.

While the hide glue is heating, I clamp a block to the face of the neckshaft that has angle on one side of it. This enables me to use a bar clamp to clamp the joint tightly. I clamp from the angled portion of the block to the top of the head.



Sometimes it is helpful to clamp from side to side too, as shown. Don't let that bottle of titebond in the picture fool you... use hide glue or fish glue.

I wipe the surfaces clean, spread the glue on and clamp it up. Where the neck connects to the head, the head should be slightly proud of the neck. This corner that is created will be chiseled off to be where the nut seats.



Once the glue is cleaned up, I find its best to call a pretty girl and hit happy hour for margaritas. This will get your mind off of straight lines and back to curves almost immediately, and reduce strain on your eyes.



jfrench38607.5413078704

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=Colin S] OK, so I'm safely in the comfort zone with scarf jointed heads, so I've been thinking it's time I moved on to V-joints. I've tried searching the archives and can't get a hit, but I know they've been discussed here before.

I know Joshua uses them, and probably some of you other classical guys do, so can anyone point me to a discussion on their construction, and hopefully an idiot's guide, or provide one.

I know they are generally used on classical guitars, but I don't see why they shouldnt be used on steel strings. They just seem much more elegant to me.

Colin
[/QUOTE]

Colin - you should have no problem making a V-joint. I think Alan Carruth might sometimes do this on a steel string guitar, or offers it (correct me if I'm wrong?). There is also an article in a GAL journal where Geza Burghardt makes one, and his work is impeccable.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Joshua,

Many thanks for that, exactly what I was looking for, I'll have a go on some scrap when I get back.

My local luthiers supply shop (David Dyke, Luthiers Supplies) sells prepared neck timber 1000 x 75 x 35mm in both mahogany and Cedar especially for V-necks. I'm thinking mahogany neck with cedar head would be nice what do you think? Your right about wanting to make a feature out of it and I shall, without embarrassment steal your ideas. Consider it an 'homage'

John, I think you should do it, it would make an extra kudos selling point for your great guitars.

Thanks Mattia, Scott I'll go have a look at MIMF, though I'm pretty happy with Joshua's lesson.

ColinColin S38607.5749189815

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Joshua
   Thanks for the lesson. That looks great!
Inspirational stuff that I hope Lance Archives somewhere. Hey Lance!

I've used that joint for a long time, although not exclusively. It's sort of a nice trick to make a good one, although it can go fast if you've got a sharp chisel and a bit of practice; I think my record is a half hour.

I make the tenon sides perpendicular to the headstock surface, not the neck as jfrench shows. Otherwise it's pretty much the same.

I've used V-joins on everything: archtop, flat top, Classical, even on 12-strings. So long as you get the tenon long enough it's very strong. I've even used it as a repair technique when the headstock was just destroyed.

The Martin joint, which Julius Borges uses on his instruments, is not the same thing. It's a sort of modified 'bridle joint', hard to describe in ASCII text. With a proper machine setup it's actually easier to fit than the standard V-joint. One classical builder who makes Hauser copies calles it a 'Fussen V-joint'. Whatever.   

[QUOTE=Colin S] Joshua,

Many thanks for that, exactly what I was looking for, I'll have a go on some scrap when I get back.

My local luthiers supply shop (David Dyke, Luthiers Supplies) sells prepared neck timber 1000 x 75 x 35mm in both mahogany and Cedar especially for V-necks. I'm thinking mahogany neck with cedar head would be nice what do you think? Your right about wanting to make a feature out of it and I shall, without embarrassment steal your ideas. Consider it an 'homage'

John, I think you should do it, it would make an extra kudos selling point for your great guitars.

Thanks Mattia, Scott I'll go have a look at MIMF, though I'm pretty happy with Joshua's lesson.

Colin[/QUOTE]

I'm not surprised you can get neck stock thick enough from a dealer in the UK - a lot of classical makers there use this type of joint. Here its much more difficult to find the neck stock, and I end up just buying flat sawn stock 3 inches thick to make quartered necks out of.

No wonder though - the English are more likely to have well sharpened tools than we seem to.

If I were doing a mahogany neck with a v-joint I'd probably still do a mahogany head, but one that is just slightly differently colored or has different grain (or is off quarter, etc) - just enough so it catches the light differently once the finish is applied. Either way definitely show it off. Almost everybody comments on it.

Let us know how it goes. You too John.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=Alan Carruth] I've used that joint for a long time, although not exclusively. It's sort of a nice trick to make a good one, although it can go fast if you've got a sharp chisel and a bit of practice; I think my record is a half hour.
[/QUOTE]

A half hour... can't touch that! Think my record is like 2 hours.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Joshua, many thanks for the tutorial. Beautiful work, however long it took.

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Joshua, yes, David Dykes lists a separate section in his catalogue just for V-necks, it's a very helpful company who will always cut any wood they have for you to any size, I love going there just to rummage about the stacks of old wood.

I may still have a go with the different woods for the head, with the cedar helping to reduce the weight of the head, but I'll take your advice first.

Joshua, All my chisels and planes are old, all from Sheffield tool steel - still the best - most bought at second hand dealers in my local weekly market. I've never found new made that can come close.

Lance, I agree with John, is it possible to find a permanent place for Joshua's tutorial? It's the kind of non-intuitive technique that is not easy to find elsewhere.

Colin

Update, I got some packing case wood from the engineers and did just a pencil layout of the the neck piece using Joshua's instructions. I can see that if done carefully and cutout with good tools this is quite a do-able joint. Thanks again Joshua. Goodbye scarf joints!
Colin S38608.4972916667

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.